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Author Topic: Christ & God VS the manipulators  (Read 1916 times)

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Apprentice Harper

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Christ & God VS the manipulators
« on: August 05, 2013, 07:02:32 AM »

WARNING: too much of the stuff I wrote is based on the Ainchent Aliens theories. I now know that the whole thing was a scam. see Ancient Aliens Debunked | A refutation of the history channel show Ancient Aliens for a point of view I have now adopted.


NOTE: I let this thread wander so this thread has veen renamed to better reflect the current overall content. thanks for your patience/tolerance for my meandering mind.

apostasy
Quote from: xxx
Apostasy is generally not a self-definition: very few former believers call themselves apostates because of the pejorative implications of the term.

Many religious groups and some states punish apostates. Apostates may be shunned by the members of their former religious group or subjected to formal or informal punishment. This may be the official policy of the religious group or may be the action of its members. Certain churches may in certain circumstances excommunicate the apostate, while some religious scriptures demand the death penalty for apostates.
OK, so what does apostacy have to do with any thing? What is the Third Secret about? <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/CETRFnN-2sc" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/CETRFnN-2sc</a>

Not many people are aware of the remarkable events surrounding "Miracle of the Sun"
Quote
The Miracle of the Sun (Portuguese: O Milagre do Sol) was an event on Saturday the 13th of October 1917 which was attended by 30,000 to 100,000 people, who were gathered near Fátima, Portugal. Several newspaper reporters were in attendance and they took testimony from many people who claimed to have witnessed extraordinary solar activity. This recorded testimony was later added to by an Italian Catholic priest and researcher in the 1940s.
Three Secrets of Fátima
Quote
The Three Secrets of Fátima consist of a series of Apocalyptic visions and prophecies which some people believe were given by an apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary to three young Portuguese shepherds, Lúcia Santos and her cousins Jacinta and Francisco Marto, starting on 13 May 1917. The three children claimed they were visited by a Marian apparition six times between May and October 1917. The supposed apparition is now popularly known as Our Lady of Fátima.

I bet no one will even get this far in this post. No matter, I still want to put in this postulation for the record. The Pope did not follow the instructions as relayed by the chosen and the Third Secret was not given to the Children in Earth in 1960. Those bound by oath not to reveal it who have seen the origional written version are few. One such person was Malachi Brendan Martin (July 23, 1921 – July 27, 1999) who has been recorded saying that the terrible revelations of the secret involve the uttermost apostasy from the highest offices...

My feeling on this all of the sudden tonight is that the Catholic chirch will be the place of origin of a third monster like Hitler and Napoleon. This one uses the Chirch to commit mas murder and achieves a devastating great apostasy of more believers than any other in history... this is an opinion and not meant as a prediction.

The oficial version... not credible in light of other evidence
Quote
The text of the Third Secret, according to the Vatican, was published on 26 June 2000:

    J.M.J.

    The third part of the secret revealed at the Cova da Iria-Fátima, on 13 May 1917.

    I write in obedience to you, my God, who command me to do so through his Excellency the Bishop of Leiria and through your Most Holy Mother and mine.

    After the two parts which I have already explained, at the left of Our Lady and a little above, we saw an Angel with a flaming sword in his left hand; flashing, it gave out flames that looked as though they would set the world on fire; but they died out in contact with the splendour that Our Lady radiated towards him from her right hand: pointing to the earth with his right hand, the Angel cried out in a loud voice: 'Penance, Penance, Penance!'. And we saw in an immense light that is God: 'something similar to how people appear in a mirror when they pass in front of it' a Bishop dressed in White 'we had the impression that it was the Holy Father'. Other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious going up a steep mountain, at the top of which there was a big Cross of rough-hewn trunks as of a cork-tree with the bark; before reaching there the Holy Father passed through a big city half in ruins and half trembling with halting step, afflicted with pain and sorrow, he prayed for the souls of the corpses he met on his way; having reached the top of the mountain, on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions. Beneath the two arms of the Cross there were two Angels each with a crystal aspersorium in his hand, in which they gathered up the blood of the Martyrs and with it sprinkled the souls that were making their way to God.

    Tuy-3-1-1944.[8][11]

to paraphrase the meat of the origional message...
Father Malachi Martin was asked the following question by a caller: "I had a Jesuit priest tell me more of the Third Secret of Fatima years ago, in Perth. He said, among other things, the last pope would be under control of Satan... Any comment on that?" Fr. Martin responded, "Yes, it sounds as if they were reading, or being told, the text of the Third Secret. But it's sufficiently vague to make one hesitate— it sounds like it."[27] In a taped interview with Bernard Janzen, Fr. Martin was asked the following question: "Who are the people who are working so hard to suppress Fatima?" Fr. Martin responded, "A bunch, a whole bunch, of Catholic prelates in Rome, who belong to Satan. They're servants of Satan. And the servants of Satan outside the Church, in various organizations; they want to destroy the Catholicism of the Church, and keep it as a stabilizing factor in human affairs. It's an alliance. A dirty alliance, a filthy alliance, but a very good alliance."[43



The religion... a political animal and not God. But the warning has veracity in that it is causing some in power to squirm. Mother of all life or Mother of Christ has comunicated an important message that was meant for a certain generation of the Children of men in Earth and men have chosen to keep this message hidden for a time. Then a message is relesed that is not trust worthy or dependable. No one is able to verify the origional to those whom the message is intended??? sounds like business as usual. Sounds like nasty politics is spitting on the Mother of all life.
Possession is not so incredible in the light of our current understanding of the Mind. It is quite explanable in terms that are within the realm of possibility. Humans are very malleable and impressionable. It is as if we where made to be controlled. Why not?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 11:39:38 PM by Apprentice Harper »
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<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/_ufzJA7IeCs" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/_ufzJA7IeCs</a>
RAMBLE ON - LED ZEPPELIN LYRICS
...
It's time I was on my way.
Thanks to you I'm much obliged
For such a pleasant stay.
But now it's time for me to go
The autumn moon lights my way.
For now I smell the rain
And with it pain...

bythelee

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Re: The Third Secret's sorrows
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2013, 02:20:08 PM »

I bet no one will even get this far in this post.
You just lost your bet.....  :teehee:
 
Seriously Chuck, you show me there is so much I am oblivious about. Thanks for posting stuff like this, because I find it immensely interesting. I am skeptical about the source, causes and origins of such things, but I do accept people experience things that have no explanation ('cos I've had my own - more later), and am happy to listen and fit pieces into a personal jigsaw puzzle.
 
 
 
 
What you put together raises so many questions for me.
Not least, things like:
Why those three kids, and not directly to the local priest?
Where there, at some little unknown place in Portugal?
And, why then, in the middle of WW1, when so many other European nations were totally pre-occupied?
 
The Miracle of the Sun event made interesting reading, and again raises so many questions. The energy needed to dry out clothes and puddles should have fried everybody too, so was it miraculous, or just interpretation of "drying" by people keen to see what they wanted to see. My first thought was of some sort of lightning fireball being mistaken for the sun, but that seems unlikely. There were plenty of other explanations in the wikipedia reference, and also plenty of similar sightings in many other places at other times, while the world's observatories confirmed the sun itself wasn't doing anything unusual at the time. So, either there was a local atmospheric condition that affected how the sun appeared, or everyone there was "touched", and both options could be entirely natural or entirely supernatural. But, as a "proof" that the other visions claimed by the children were also real, it carries a certain strength. Most of the 30,000 people saw "something". 
 
I was also surprised that the Lady's requirement can apparently be fulfilled at any time post 1960. My first impression was that it had a deadline, which is why the Pope first read the letter in late 1959, as if to see what he might have to ready for the next year. I thought that if it wasn't done in 1960, it could never be done, and fate was sealed. So to hear JP2 had a go in 1981, but got it wrong by dedicating the whole world and not just specifically Russia as asked for, was a bit surprising.
 
More curiously, Communist Russia was barely born in early 1917, and changed dramatically during WW2, so what part of Russia/USSR was meant by the vision? And given how the USSR is today no longer what it was in 1960, how can the request ever be fulfilled today?
 
I get hung up on little details like these, because either there was something divine going on, that knew exactly what would happen and when, and gave future instructions appropriate for the time (which should convince non-believers beyond all doubt of a God), or someone heard about what had happened in Russia, and imagined a doomsday scenario that the newly-created communist threat would need to be dealt with. I find it no coincidence that the timing, and specification of Russia (and ONLY Russia) points to "the communist threat" as a prime motivation. Because, at that time, Russia was the only country in the world that Communism existed in. But this points to an entirely human origin for the information, which belies the Miracle of the Sun prediction.....
 
It is a scary thought that God has now abandoned the world ("Grace has been withdrawn") since 1960. But it absolutely fits with the way society has been changing, which I used to attribute to the rise of the first post-WW2 generation (ie, the baby-boomers), with their expectations and dreams of empowerment and liberty instilled by their parents who saw the devastation in Europe. There certainly seems to be a godless evilness about the world these days. Some folk seem to be so completely without humanity that I question whether they are human.....
 
 
Quote
The religion... a political animal and not God.
No one is able to verify the origional to those whom the message is intended??? sounds like business as usual. Sounds like nasty politics is spitting on the Mother of all life.
Yup. I like where you're going with this.
 
Quote
Possession is not so incredible in the light of our current understanding of the Mind. It is quite explanable in terms that are within the realm of possibility. Humans are very malleable and impressionable. It is as if we where made to be controlled. Why not?
I thought of hypnotism, reading this. We are just working out that memory is not what we thought it was. And I agree, it is as if we are meant to be controlled.
 
I have a sort of fear of crowds, and avoid large gatherings. But it's more specific than that - it is a fear of "mob-instinct". That a group simply follows unthinkingly like sheep, wherever a leader may take them. I have found myself being an outsider, challenging and thinking about what is said, and suddenly I'm in the middle of a hostile gang, angry that I am not blindly accepting and following what "is obvious" to everyone else. As if peer pressure drives people to do the same thing with no reason. I see it whenever random celebrities are worshipped by the sycophantic fans surrounding them. And am reminded of Hitler's rise to power.
 
And there is absolutely no reason why it shouldn't happen again, either with a country and it's leader, or a religion. To generate the apostasy. I share the implicit fear that most people are simply "bots" infected with a virus, ready to be turned into a "bot-net" by their chosen evil leader, to mount an attack on whatever website religion / society / group of people  he chooses. Many films have already touched on this horror scenario..... even zombie apocalypses are a variant of it.
 
Enough drama for one day. This is a long post already, but I said earlier I've experienced things that have no rational explanation. I only know they happened, and there was no drugs or alcohol or subliminal suggestion involved. I was always awake, so no dreams or trance-like states. I have no rational explanation for it, and can accept "divine intervention" as an origin, in whatever form that may be. Read on if you fancy a twilight zone experience....
 
 
 
 
 
My personal experience that proves to me there is more to this world than the physical science we see:
I have had some strange experiences, visions if you like, but sometimes just "knowledges", mostly involving future predictions. Sometimes I have seen things from odd positions, while my eyes physically ceased to see the real world in front of me. Sometimes I just suddenly "know" things, not because I've read or been told them, but the moment before, I had no idea, and the next, I just knew it. They don't ever include a date, and mostly I don't know when, but there is one prediction that I do have a year to expect it in. It is the only one yet to be fulfilled, still 2 to 3 years away.
 
For example, I knew that a former work colleague would be shot and killed outside his home late one night. I didn't know when, I just knew that that was how he was going to die. It took ten years to happen, and I had moved country by then, but another former colleague told me about it.
 
But the most irrefutable experience I had, that proves to me beyond any shadow od doubt that there is more to this world than the physical and scientific level we know as fact, was an out of body experience while unlocking my car one morning. As I put the key in the door, about to drive to work, I ceased to see what was in front of me, and instead saw my car driving down a motorway from 50 feet above and behind, like a helicopter chase view. I then recognised the offramp the car drove onto moments later, and knew that the engine had died as I had changed gear to slow down. I also knew that the fault was that the ignition points had just failed. And then I was back in reality, and turned the key to unlock the door. Ten minutes later I was taking that offramp, and the engine died. It was still dead at lunchtime when I went back with tools, to fix the damaged ignition. Of course it was the points that had failed. It could never have been anything else, could it?
 
Predicting such a failure is absolutely impossible for any mortal, so anyone who suggests I "knew intuitively" is in denial. Besides, getting an inkling that something might happen, is not the same as ceasing to see what my eyes are seeing, and instead seeing my car from a chase view position that was physically impossible for me to ever be in, is just twilight zone weird.
 
The points operate once per cylinder firing, and a ten minute drive averaging 3000rpm = 10 x 3000 x 2 = 60,000 operations just in that one journey, and yet I knew to within 200 cycles when it was going to fail (allowing a generous 2 second window at that location). And given that the engine had done 5 million cycles a week before in a trans-country journey, the odds are vanishingly small. I bet no motor mechanic has ever made as accurate a prediction about when and where the points would fail in any car, in all of history. And yet, I didn't know that it was going to happen on the journey I was about to make (the daily commute to work). Seeing the future is supposed to be impossible, right? Only I know I was shown what was about to happen, and have been given the facts about other future events that have also come to pass, like the death of my colleague.
 
There have also been "voice on the shoulder" moments, when it's as if someone has said something, but I hear it without there being any sound to hear. It's like the auditory nerve was stimulated as if a voice spoke it, without the eardrum being activated by sound. Hope that makes sense. These happen when things are imminent, like being told to slow down for no good reason, only to find out there was an unexpected road blockage (an artic truck manouvering) that I would have hit had I not slowed down. Such things are more readily explained by intuition, and road craft skills where certain hints and signals can give you the message. Except, the instruction to slow down was "heard", and I had had my drivers licence only about three months at the time, so not a lot of experience to draw on.
 
Most of these events occured in my late teens and early twenties, over twenty years ago. Things have been silent for a long time. But the impression made, and the way they were made, convinced me there is something more. Time travel is impossible, so how can I know things that are yet to come. How could I SEE things from impossible positions, about things that are impossible to physically predict?
 
Whether divinely inspired, whether an angel fiddled with my brain, or whether the world around us includes dimensions we know nothing about, that our senses cannot detect, but under the right conditions can make contact with our consciousness, or whether we have souls and spirits (or just a sub-conscious) that are in touch with other realms, any or all of the above is possible. An all-knowing God with pre-determination is just one possible explanation for what I experienced. I simply don't know what the reality is, but when I hear about similar inexplicable stuff, I take note because there are grains of truth in all of it. And I am totally convinced that what I can see and touch and hear is absolutely not the limit of the physical world my body exists in.
 
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Apprentice Harper

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Re: The Third Secret's sorrows
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2013, 04:47:53 PM »

Thanks, bythelee, for sharing your experiences and impressions.

When I see an event in my own life from the third person perspective before it happens I have come to expect that it is a pivotal event. Perhaps in an alternate time line the failure of the ignition points has lead to an emotional or tragic outcome. Perhaps you or a guardian presence had a very strong emotional response to the event. If Humans are able to interpret quantum information then an emotional event could result in a pulse of information that is quantomly entangled with the mind of those who experience the event and under the right conditions that information might be reflected back to the source in the past, present, and future. The past echo would seem to travel in time but it would be instantaneous. The difference in time would be a function of  the distance between the observer and the object that is quantum entangled and acts as a sort of mirror. Electromagnetic radiation that is always present would connect the mirror and the observer and moves at the speed of light between them. As this ordinary NRG interacts with the mirror in the "future" the quantum event instantaneously reaches the observer. In effect, time and distance is irrelevant on the quantum level.

I believe that precognition is simply an adaptation that most life shares. In humans, only the strongest events are usualy precieved and often our socialization tells us to ignore what we can not, readily, explain.

LOL hope You had your boots on... That was pretty deep poo. :^P

On the other hand perhaps an angel wanted to make a point in your life so you would be aware of the invisible presence of God.

I sort of like the possibility that the Miracle of the sun was technological. Unidentified flying objects have been reported to be associated with rain clouds some times. It would be convenient for a sunlike object to be placed above the clouds away from the actual suns position. Then open an appropriate portal in the clouds to reveal the "psudo" sun and achieve the desired effect.

My beliefe that humanity is being manipulated and that we have been for a very long time means I always am on the lookout for evidence of such manipulation. But I still believe that God is true and that the ones who manipulate are like us and also know God.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 04:59:49 PM by Apprentice Harper »
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<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/_ufzJA7IeCs" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/_ufzJA7IeCs</a>
RAMBLE ON - LED ZEPPELIN LYRICS
...
It's time I was on my way.
Thanks to you I'm much obliged
For such a pleasant stay.
But now it's time for me to go
The autumn moon lights my way.
For now I smell the rain
And with it pain...

bythelee

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Re: The Third Secret's sorrows
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2013, 09:41:58 PM »

Bless you, Chuck, for putting your eyes through my marathon post. And thanks for supporting my story - whenever I have dared to share it with friends and family, they smile sweetly and start calling the institutions....
 
When I see an event in my own life from the third person perspective before it happens I have come to expect that it is a pivotal event.
Haaaaang on. Wait a minute. You're saying you get these too? And "regularly"?
Which means, you're now officially the only other person I know that has experienced this, and doesn't think it is a prank. Bless you again.
 
Quote
Perhaps in an alternate time line the failure of the ignition points has lead to an emotional or tragic outcome. Perhaps you or a guardian presence had a very strong emotional response to the event.
Perhaps, but it feels unlikely to me. It wasn't the first (or last) time the car broke down, and breakdowns never caused me any real distress. The only strange thing was, I was giving a lift to a fellow student, so it helped to know what was happening at the offramp, and reassure him it wasn't a big deal. We were only half a mile from work at that time, and another employee that recognised us, stopped to pick us up very quickly.
 
I honestly believe the main reason was that "something" saw a perfect opportunity to enlighten me to the presense of "more" than this physical world. I was still young and naive and asking questions, and had barely touched Christianity at that point. And there were no religious references in any of my experiences. Unlike the three kids in Portugal....
 
In fact, I was mostly looking for reasons to discredit religion at that time. When I was 17, for example, I worked out a logical explanation for everlasting life:
If you assume that life does indeed cease when the brain stops thinking, you will never know you are dead. Because, you can only tell yourself you are dead while you are alive, so once you are really dead, you can never tell yourself so, to know it. And since you would never know you were dead, you will live forever from your point of view. It seems kinda obvious to say that, but it isn't something I've ever read, nor even seen anywhere, although I'm sure there must be Psychology textbooks somewhere that reveal it......
Oh, and depending on whether you were happy and satisfied with having lived a good life, or filled with regret and torment for bad deeds, decided whether your final and everlasting moments were good (heaven) or bad (hell).
 
So, experiencing the premonition of the car breakdown a few years later told me that it wasn't as simple as that! Rather than pivotal moments, it seems more likely they were just advantageous opportunities for the "guardian presense" to let me know about itself.
 
 
Quote
If Humans are able to interpret quantum information then an emotional event could result in a pulse of information that is quantomly entangled with the mind of those who experience the event and under the right conditions that information might be reflected back to the source in the past, present, and future. The past echo would seem to travel in time but it would be instantaneous. The difference in time would be a function of  the distance between the observer and the object that is quantum entangled and acts as a sort of mirror. Electromagnetic radiation that is always present would connect the mirror and the observer and moves at the speed of light between them. As this ordinary NRG interacts with the mirror in the "future" the quantum event instantaneously reaches the observer. In effect, time and distance is irrelevant on the quantum level.
Holy C***, Chuck, where did THAT come from? I feel a bit like Jack O'Neill listening to Samantha Carter....  :whistle2:   
I thought I was pretty well educated about science stuff, and barely kept up with you there. No, actually, I think I fell behind a bit.
 
I'd agree that seeing the breakdown felt like seeing the future of a single universe, how ever that information was relayed back to me. The question your explanation raises, is why it doesn't happen more often, to more people. (ie What are those "right conditions"?) Because, for me, the events have been much less pivotal. They are notable events, perhaps, but there have been many other events, of far greater noteworthy status, that got no such premonition.
 
Even the "slow down" was a "heard" warning - I did not get a view of the blocked road ahead, nor any reason why slowing down was important. But the "voice" had such command, that I just did as I was told. And it was immediate, whereas the breakdown was ten minutes into the future, and my murdered colleague was ten years away. The one I'm still waiting for will be 30 years old when it happens. Sometimes I think all of the previous premonitions were just to convince me of the reality of the one yet to come, because that one will be fairly life changing (for me).
 
Quote

I believe that precognition is simply an adaptation that most life shares. In humans, only the strongest events are usualy perceived and often our socialization tells us to ignore what we can not, readily, explain.
Interesting. I hadn't considered that before. Certainly not that lower life forms might have it. But perhaps that's how many creatures know when earthquakes are coming.
 
That humans tend to disbelieve and ignore "fact" when it feels too uncomfortable is also an adaptation. Our senses perceive, and our brain interprets, and often lies to our conscious mind about what went on. As shown in so many perception experiments.
 
Going slightly off topic, there is also the "connection" between people, especially twins. My Mother and I often knew when the other was about to call them, ten minutes before the phone rang, for example. "I knew it was you" was her usual greeting, because I called her ten times more often than she called me, but it worked the other way too. Weeks after we last spoke, I'd suddenly think she was about to call, and the phone would ring within ten minutes. Perhaps some sort of mental quantum entanglement occurs in the womb.


Quote
On the other hand perhaps an angel wanted to make a point in your life so you would be aware of the invisible presence of God.
Yeah, this is the strongest theoretical explanation I had for it. Accepting that God and the angel might just have been a "Gaia" force that underpins all of creation. I mean, what we call God and angels is perhaps just a convenient descriptor for something our simple minds cannot comprehend.
 
Bear in mind that these premonitions all happened some years before I decided that there was a God, and that Christianity had some grains of truth behind the bible. Life experiences have now taken me beyond any faith I once had (as in, I am lost and abandoned, with no way back), and while I remain convinced there is much "more" to this world than a big bang and a theory of evolution, I'm no longer certain it exists as a God and his heavenly realm as the bible describes it.
 
 
Quote
I sort of like the possibility that the Miracle of the sun was technological.
Some of the witness statements said that the sun came below the clouds. It was also not as bright as the sun, and at that distance, it certainly could not have been. That, plus the zigging and zagging (aka dancing) describes ball lightning pretty well.
Zeppelins were more or less around at that time, so a deflating silver painted balloon was technologically possible for a human origin. A UFO, whether put there by aliens or divine manifestation, is also feasible.
 
But the nagging, lingering thought is, it had been PREDICTED. So, a random event of ball lightning is out of the question. It could still have been ball lightning, but it would had to have been put there by the same source of the visions. Or, at least, the vision source could see the future and shared that knowledge with the children, just as I was shown my car breaking down.
 
The even bigger nagging thought, is that some of the witnesses (including believers) saw nothing. And it's hard to see how an actual physical manifestation could not be seen by everyone. They might interpret and describe it differently, sure, but they should all have seen something. Which takes us into the realms of people having the images directly placed in their minds, when there was nothing to see. This is where the explanation of staring at the sun leading to visual artefacts becomes boringly acceptable. Especially as those keen to see something will rejoice at their affected vision with gusto. People will see what they want to see.
 
It has also been experimentally demonstrated how people will insist they saw the same thing being described by someone else, even when the decriber is making it up completely, and nothing had happened at all. It's that "mob-instinct" - a desire to be part of the herd. So, it just takes one person staring at the sun to see something weird, then others will agree they saw the same, then yet more will agree they saw it too, even if they didn't. And suddenly 30,000 people are mostly insisting there was a Miracle of the Sun, because they wanted to believe the prediction had actually happened.
 
So perhaps the Miracle was entirely psychological, and not technological.
I was thinking of Asimov's Foundation trilogy earlier, where psycho-historians predicted the future based on psychology plus statistics plus past history. In other words, if you know how people behave well enough, you can predict what they will do...... and manipulate them as you wish.

Quote
My beliefe that humanity is being manipulated and that we have been for a very long time means I always am on the lookout for evidence of such manipulation. But I still believe that God is true and that the ones who manipulate are like us and also know God.
Being manipulated? Agreed. Absolutely.
And the vast majority meekly follow like sheep, clicking "like" and buying smartphones and chanting slogans and adopting all of the social norms their peers subscribe to, be it blue jeans or revolutions.
 
But I don't really know who or what God is anymore. My life no longer makes sense from a Christian viewpoint. I can't really explain that here.
 
The way I read the bible gave me the impression that God is very hands off. He will answer prayers if asked, but it's important to remember, like the Lord's Prayer says, it is THY will be done, and not MY will be done. So only prayers in keeping with God's plan will get any action.
 
Meanwhile, the devil has free reign to interfere and deceive and destroy. Whereas God will respond when asked (sometimes), I believe it is the devil that does all of the manipulation. Even those that do things in the assured belief that they are doing God's deeds, are very often being deceived and led by the dark side. Hence, the importance of checking and challenging everything "received from God" (like minister's sermons, etc).
 
Because, it is damn hard to resist the influence, challenge the accepted norms, and stand alone when all about you flock unthinkingly and unseeingly to whatever fad is presently flavour of the minute. On twitter, of course.  ;)
 
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Apprentice Harper

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Re: The Third Secret's sorrows
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2013, 05:27:03 AM »

 :wavey: bythelee

There is a theory that shares a lot of sinilarities with mine. It centers on the writings of Sumerians and Babylonians. They refer to another intelligent race coming to earth looking for Gold and other resources. I will embed one of the better documentaries rather than try to describe the theory myself.<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/u9SQ8Sx6W9I" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/u9SQ8Sx6W9I</a>

I had been trying to reconcile Humanities behavior with any kind of rational explanation. I had long been influenced by the ideas of Erich von Däniken. As I became more aware of possibilities and studied the bible for myself and throu the Way Ministry I began to see a scenario taking shape. Like puzzle pieces coming together many bits and pieces began to resonate with each other to form a more plausible story than the one I was being fed by Christianity and my history teachers.

Parts of the bible began to read like a business contract and others like legal documents. I stopped believing dogmatically in 900 year old men who would wait til they were some 144 years old to have a first child... Divide by 12 and I can believe in the  75 year old man who had a child at 12. Figuring that out sort of freed me to imagine other "mismanglements" in the old testament.

I decided that Humanity was probably not natural. I imagined that other Life forms in the galaxy or perhaps from Earth's history had become sentient and intelligent enough to either genetically manipulate Humanity  or domesticate us away from nature into our current messed up state. I could begin to rest my mind around this where I was totally uncomfortable with the accepted notions from either science or religion. A Goldy Locks moment; like finding that, just right, bed at last... LOL

I was not really interested in weather anyone else believed like I did. Not for years. But when 911 happened and I saw a perfectly exicuted demolition of three buildings being called an accident I knew something was very wrong. That very uncomfortable feeling was back... I started looking again, for some way to reconcile reality with the madness that was being ignored by the people I thought were supposed to care. I am still looking.

I found the ideas of Zecharia Sitchin very interesting and I find myself exploring the further possibilities again. A reason to get up and some thing to look forwards too. But not any thing of value I suppose. Better than the dissipations of alcohol...


One thing that occurred to me regarding the significance of the Year 1917 - Wikipedia. Other than being the year my father was born it was also the year of  the Balfour Declaration in November 2.
October 13 – Miracle of the Sun at Fatima in Portugal. I believe you mentioned or wondered why that year or something.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 05:36:53 AM by Apprentice Harper »
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RAMBLE ON - LED ZEPPELIN LYRICS
...
It's time I was on my way.
Thanks to you I'm much obliged
For such a pleasant stay.
But now it's time for me to go
The autumn moon lights my way.
For now I smell the rain
And with it pain...

bythelee

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Re: The Third Secret's sorrows
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2013, 12:01:32 PM »

Things are hurtling along so fast I'm a little overwhelmed. Thanks for the info - it's all very interesting stuff, and the youtube Sumerian summary was also captivating, although I struggle to get past an emotional rejection of that over-hyping narrator voice....
 
Anyway, I'm thinking I somewhat misunderstood you before.
My beliefe that humanity is being manipulated and that we have been for a very long time means I always am on the lookout for evidence of such manipulation. But I still believe that God is true and that the ones who manipulate are like us and also know God.
I thought you meant that "the ones who manipulate" were humans, who know of God, like priests and Popes, and perhaps pretend to be Christian while leading astray. But I now think you mean an off-world entity, who knows the true origin of the being that we attribute "God" to (as in, the alien that seeded human life on Earth).
 
And yes, I think that latter idea is a more practical interpretation of who God is. But I also believe the "alien race" might exist on another level. Like, those ascended "Ancients" in Stargate. I'm far from convinced that they come from Planet X.
I'd also like to believe that Heaven is an actual place, and a soul will leave my physical body and go there someday. Because knowing about our Sumerian creator doesn't explain that side of things at all.
 
 
Some other thoughts that randomly popped up:
Sumeria:
The Sumerian reference made me think of "The Fourth Kind" movie that I saw recently, about ancient Sumerians with advanced technology abducting humans on a nightly basis. I watched it without any homework, and with very keen interest after the opening credits claimed it was based on true stories and actual events. However (and to prove my challenging nature) I was pretty sure that it was fake by halfway through, but remained nagged by how the producers could claim authenticity so strongly if it was not.
 
For me, the main problem was how the "documentary video footage" kept fuzzing out into static whenever an alien was present. It was not a purely visual effect that the tape recorded OK, it was presented as if the tape had failed, before resuming recording after the alien had left. OK, perhaps the alien is surrounded by a huge magnetic field that affects the recording. Except, the soundtrack was unaffected.... Both are magnetic. You can't affect one without the other.
 
Some extra facts in the closing credits then caused me to further doubt my conviction about fakeness, not least that the FBI visited Nome, Alaska far more regularly than it should.
 
But perhaps the most obvious  :facepalm:  was, why would Sumerians from the middle East choose a tiny, isolated village in Alaska to abduct all of their victims from? A more technical one is that an ancient language expert knew what was being said, when he only has written records and no pronunciation to work from. Even Stargate tackled that one, in the original film, with Daniel Jackson having to work out pronunciation of the hieroglyphs, on Abydos.
 
Planet X:
Wow. That would be the same Planet X referred to in revelations. Which is comforting, because if it exists and we still can't see it, that means it must still be a long way out, and centuries, perhaps a thousand years away from making it's "end days" pass close to Earth. And that's assuming it's very next trip in towards the sun is going to be "the big one".
 
Since the youtube story showed how a previous collision between Tiamat and Nabiru resulted in half of Tiamat being smashed up into the asteroid belt, and the rest knocked into a lower orbit around the sun and becoming the Earth, it's feasible that the two could meet again.....
 
Planet X again, with scepticism:
So, assuming the Sumerians started out on Planet X, it seems unlikely that such advanced, intelligent life would evolve on such a hostile environment. Life as we know it is impossible. If Nabiru "came from deep space" as claimed, then there is too little light for photosynthesis. The planet core might have enough warmth for liquid water, but that alone is not enough. Life could exist, yes, but I doubt it would even conceive of the idea of green plant life and photosynthesis.
 
Of course, we have no idea if the planet was orbiting a habitable sun billions of years ago, and "travelled" here after it broke free, carrying with it all of the life needed, just looking for the right conditions to seed again, with the Sumerians using planet and fuel to keep plant life growing all the time.
But in that case, what a lucky fluke it should have met the solar system. An even luckier fluke that it hit the earth in such a way to knock the earth into the perfect orbit for sustaining the right sort of life. And luckier still that Nabiru was captured by our sun so that they could stay local. A trifecta of impossible odds means it was not an accident, if it happened at all. So, how much high tech does it take to "drive a planet" - as in, steer it just where you want it to go?   
 
Given that the collision occured 4 billion years ago, and the Earth has been habitable for many millions of years, I find it unbelievable that the Sumerians would visit us only recently to create the human race. If I were them, I'd have relocated lock stock and barrel many millions of years ago. 
 
They have advanced tech and space flight good enough to traverse the solar system. But they can't mine a bit of gold, and needed to genetically engineer humans (yet more advanced tech) to mine it for them? That story doesn't add up for me.
 
There may be other reasons why humanity was created - perhaps their life forms are not compatible with Earth conditions, so they have patiently and skillfully adapted their DNA into something suitably evolved and adapted to survive here, knowing that their own planet is unsustainable in the billions-of-years long term. This seems far more plausible, and fits the "creation" theories of being made in their image.
 
But again, if they have the tech implicit in the story, then terraforming the earth and tweaking it's orbit so it would be just right for a complete relocation is once again the more obvious way to go. Why spend millions of years guiding the evolution of a human race, instead of taking the planet for yourself?
 
Suspending that scepticism for a moment, ancient Sumeria was perhaps a "colony" where they tried to bring the first modern humans up to speed. But it failed for whatever reason. The ancient Sumerian tablets shown in the video (like, of the solar system) seem to prove beyond all doubt that there was knowledge beyond any conceivable means.
 
Perhaps they have visited now and then, creating things like Puma Punku and Tihuanaku  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIBnN7CfDC4 - it's that voice again....
 
And yet, they only built with stone. Their tech much have known about metal crafting, so why are there no metalworks anywhere? Iron and most steels rust, sure, but gold and stainless steel do not. Perhaps the absolute proof remains buried and hidden. Or submerged. Atlantis here we come.
 
I liked the correlations between Mars and Earth, though. Like, the Nazca lines. But if there was still an active base on Mars, wouldn't our various missions there have shown something by now? Not the rovers - I mean the orbiting surveyors taking high res photos to map the surface.
 
It's hard to know what grains of truth to believe. But it's been fun thinking and talking about it. My pieces of puzzle don't yet fit together enough to see where it's all going.....
 
The world is filled with mysterious and inexplicable events and artefacts. I see the bible (and religion) as an attempt by humans to rationalise what is beyond our comprehension, and take the anthropomorphisms with a pinch of salt. Dogmatic insistence of the literalness seems inappropriate, although perhaps those that live on Nabiru do indeed live for 900 earth years and have kids at 144. Their planet takes 3600 earth years to complete just one of it's own (as in, orbits of the sun). We are in their image, so perhaps they could live amongst us and remain hidden.
 
 
1917:
Oh, and lastly, I thought 1917 for the prophesy and the focus on Russia as the Third Secret was the significant connection. The communist revolution happened in early 1917, so the visions and prophesy happened some months after Europe was aware of this "new world order" threat. And hence, if it was an entirely human consipracy, someone decided that the Russian threat needed to be addressed in the future, and everything that transpired in Portugal stemmed from that. I found significance that the Pope was required to rededicate Russia, and only Russia, to God. Because Russia was in the headlines in a big way during 1917.
 
The Balfour Declaration, on the other hand, came after the events in Portugal, so it could no way have inspired anyone to appear as a vision to three children, or deflate a zeppelin on the right day to lend credence to the prophesy threat. This would support the human conspiracy theory option for the prophesies, plus a bit of psycho-history to see where the Russian Revolution would eventually take the world. We can now "fit the facts" with hindsight to declare the prophesy to be right, even though specific details are lacking and interpretation of events is required.
 
To get right back on topic:
It would seem that the actual events of The Third Secret (as you originally quoted and published) have yet to transpire.
 
Perosnal experience of Bishop Desmond Tutu in 1993, and even Dr. Rowan Williams response to the 2004 tsunami, tells me that very senior church leaders are absolutely not men of God in the way we expect them to be. Tutu was the only person preaching violence and rioting and retribution at the funeral of Chris Hani. As the only man of god there, I was surprised he wasn't preaching forgivenss and love. Williams cast huge doubt on the faith of all believers, when he should have realised that such an event was more likely caused by the devil. God allowing to happen? Well, how many Christians were killed by it. And it happened on boxing day, not Christmas day. And so on. Instead, he focussed all Christian's thoughts on doubting their God. The leader of the Church of England doubting God's existence..... and no-one batted an eyelid.
Not the same as the apostasy prophesied. But nice examples of how we're building up to it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1480232/Archbishop-of-Canterbury-This-has-made-me-question-Gods-existence.html
 
 
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Apprentice Harper

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Re: The Third Secret's sorrows
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2013, 03:48:36 PM »

I do not believe the whole scenario as layed out in the presentation. I could have found a better documentary. The Sumerians were NOT the extraterrestrials themselves. They were Humans that some believe interacted with extraterrestrials. I found the ideas of Zecharia Sitchin very interesting and I find myself exploring the further possibilities again. I in no way believe the Extraterrestrials are creators or any kind of god. Rather I believe they  are manipulators of creation just like we are.

Here is one of my more pompous rants on the subject. These posts are pomposities and embarrassing. I am not at my best just now so I will try and explain more later. I may move the off topics to another thread soon to keep the thread more cohearent. But not just now.
“What Has Been Said,”.
Exploitation, the forbidden word...

talk later...
thanks
Chuck
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 03:53:17 PM by Apprentice Harper »
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RAMBLE ON - LED ZEPPELIN LYRICS
...
It's time I was on my way.
Thanks to you I'm much obliged
For such a pleasant stay.
But now it's time for me to go
The autumn moon lights my way.
For now I smell the rain
And with it pain...

bythelee

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Re: The Third Secret's sorrows
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2013, 10:27:20 PM »

Wow, that was seriously heavy going for me. Not at all sure I understood it all. English Literature was my absolute worst subject at school, because I'm such a literal sort of guy.
 
Anyway, here's what I got, running it past you to make sure we're on the same page:
 
- The entire universe has a creator, called God.
- The aliens on planet X (Nibiru) are not the creator, but have exploited what they found on Earth.
- There is a balance throughout the universe - the galactic economy - in much the same way that some people reckon Gaia to be an "Earth economy".
- There is very little freedom in the universe. Most sentience is bound by some sort of slavery or contract, and the Bible represents the contract of Humanity with God.
- ultimately humanity may seek to find it's own place in the galatic hierarchy - Human Sovereignty - because we are not free now, even if we think we are.
 
Some of which I agree with, some of which not, but there is nothing I could say for certain is not right, even if it has too much "cosmicness" for me to be comfortable with personally.
 
Firstly, just to clarify:
When I said the aliens from Nibiru might be "God", I meant in the same sort of context that the Goa'uld called themselves gods in the stargate series. That they exploited the resources they found, tweaking and seeding and manipulating earth and humans to suit their own ends. We might be crossing swords slightly over the semantics of "creation". To me, if something exists only because of the action of someone, it was created.
 
So, this thread was created because you created it. The aliens may be our creators by genetic manipulation of chimps to start off the early humans. To me, I would call them creators for that. Sure, they were just manipulating what was there already, but to build something new according to an idea, and not just copying what has already been done elsewhere, is what defines creation to me. If we would not be here without their meddling and manipulation, then they created us in my book.
 
It remains unclear to me why they would want to accelerate humans on earth for something like goldmining, but I could accept that they sought to preserve their genetics in a lifeform suited to conditions on earth, which might be too hostile an environment for them, compared with those on Nabiru. Which explains the "made in his image" bit.
 
We humans would thus consider our creators to be those aliens, even though they themselves have an even older, primordial God - the creator of the universe (and possibly other levels of "creator" inbetween). And I would not be certain as to which God is referred to in the bible. Aliens taking credit for a creator's work is not beyond the realms of manipulation and deception this thread has taken. I mean, even if we were already here, and the aliens did nothing more than take advantage of a gullible, curious ape by telling them they had made them, then the aliens could still be claiming to be our "god" even when they did nothing to create or evolve us.
 
On the other hand, those aliens have been around since Nibiru collided with earth 4 billion years ago, so it seems odd that they have remained so local and inactive until just a few thousand years ago. Which is why I doubt there is any life remaining on Planet X, even if it is there (and science and revelations both say it is.) Look how far we have come in just the last hundred years, and then try to tell me that a civilization capable of surviving an interstellar journey on a lonely planet (shades of Moonbase Alpha from Space: 1999 there) has not done vastly more than we can possibly imagine in 4 billion years, waiting all that time before making first contact in Sumeria. Or perhaps Bolivia. Or Atlantis. Again it doesn't add up for me.
 
Unless, of course, we are being fed the technological advances via that manipulation you talk of, and actually we are far too dumb to work it out for ourselves....... 
 
That the inspirations of Galileo, Newton, Einstein and suchlike, were thoughts implanted in their minds in much the same way as I gained my knowledges, or saw my car breakdown. Perhaps they had guardian presenses closely accompanying them all the time, steering the minds of greatest potential of the time along the paths of scientific discovery.
 
All I can say for sure, is that I clearly knew the difference between when I was given a vision or knowledge, and when I had worked something out for myself. And if I'm going to question that certainty about myself, then absolutely nothing is known for sure and we can stop the discussion right now.   
 
Maybe it's taken us 4 billion years of evolution to get to a point where we can receive their knowledge. Perhaps the aliens bumped off the dinosoars to make way for the more promising mammals..... In which case, why aren't they here today? Perhaps then it requires that Planet X is close to perigee to make travel and contact possible. Such questions and possibilities......
Revelations implies that the next time we "meet" planet X, it'll pass so close, the gravity will tear the earth apart. But probably not in our lifetime, else we'd see it approaching already. 
 
Suggesting the Sumerians actually were the aliens was just me putting an idea out there. And not impossible, if we really do look alike. A "colony" might seem fanciful, but there are those that believe Atlantis was likewise a colony of aliens, and I still wouldn't rule it out. It seems impossible that the (human) Sumerians were not gifted knowledge by the aliens at the very least, either of information directly (like the layout of the solar system) or the tools to make the discoveries themselves (like telescopes). It still seems strange to me, that for all the high tech apparently available, they recorded stuff on clay tablets and carved in stone. I would ask who on earth does that today, in our digital era? And then answered my own question: gravestones.  :whistle2:   
 
 
As for the contract between Humanity and God, well, I don't want to accept that a benevolent God would demand that "he made us, so we owe him". So many of our artistic works centre on the struggle for freedom against such blackmail. I didn't ask to be made, so don't expect me to grateful and humbly become a slave for it. Besides, I only have His word for it, that He did indeed make me. Perhaps He is the pretender claiming credit for another's work. And so it goes on.
 
You are quite clear in your writings that you acknowledge the original true creator of the universe. And yes, he is the only one that is deserving of any worship. But I question if he is that deserving, if the only reason he did it (made us) was to have some slaves for his beck and call. Then again, the Angels in heaven are entirely in His servitude - that's what Lucifer and the fallen ones were all about - protesting their slavery, as much as demanding equality. It's a situation I prefer to turn a blind eye to, than confront head on.
 
 
I do believe in a cosmic balance of sorts. However, the universe is so spread out, that an imbalance is only felt within the local vicinity. So, imbalance on earth affects earth, and perhaps the solar system, but no farther. There are grains of truth in the way of life of the American Red Indians, and Australian Aboriginies, who seek to remain in balance with nature. Or the Gaia hypothesis, as it is sometimes known (in the sense of modern ecological theory, not the old Greek Goddess.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis
 
Fundamentally I do believe in creation. The odds against life on earth are so astronomic I can't decide what it means:
- It is so abundant on our planet. Every corner, every inhospitable crack, is teeming with life. Which suggests life should be everywhere, on almost all planets.
- but I personally doubt whether any other planet has had the history and timing of conditions and events to support life as we know it. Heck, we wouldn't be here today if conditions had remained as they were in the early years of the earth - there was no free oxygen. It took a lot of algae and plant life to lift oxygen levels to those we have today. And it even overshot up to 40% oxygen at one point, which would be toxic to us. That we are here at all is directly dependent on the unique history of the earth. And having the moon. And being the right distance from the sun. And so many other goldilocks requirements it is a miracle there is any life here at all.
 
Perhaps the key is that life in the universe may be abundant, but mostly stuck at a microbe level. Complex organisms and especially sentient beings are perhaps the rare exception. And that's where it gets interesting. Because, what is it that makes us US, and not just a biological bag of chemicals going through the motions of respiration, reproduction, growth and responding to stimuli. Where do we get our ability to THINK from?
 
This is all very much a long way from where this thread started. I'm not sure where else it can, or should go.
 
At first I thought it was about manipulation of people by people, claiming to be disseminating God's will, but actually pursing their own evil ends. Or possibly really believing they are disseminating God's will, but are being deceived by evil. But now I'm less clear about what was meant.
 
It seems to have changed into all of life in the universe being in a power struggle, of the superior beings attempting to exert their influence over the lesser creatures like us, in overt and covert exercises that we may or may not be aware of. That their is a pecking order and heirarchy, with the universe creator a the top, and us.... somewhere near the bottom. Of using psychology and fear to build religions and altars and Gods (Norse Gods, Greek and Roman Gods, Economic gods) to delude us and steer us the way someone, or something, wants us to go.
 
So it's about time to mention The Matrix. You are the One, Harper Neo.  :teehee:  But maybe you should take the blue pill instead......
 
 
 
 
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Apprentice Harper

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Re: The Third Secret's sorrows
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2013, 11:21:21 PM »

NOTE: this post is depricated by the content below and has been removed.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 01:08:36 PM by Apprentice Harper »
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RAMBLE ON - LED ZEPPELIN LYRICS
...
It's time I was on my way.
Thanks to you I'm much obliged
For such a pleasant stay.
But now it's time for me to go
The autumn moon lights my way.
For now I smell the rain
And with it pain...

DarkZephyr

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Re: The Third Secret's sorrows
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2013, 02:40:13 AM »

I will admit that I have not read much of this thread, but I am familiar with the Miracle of the Sun and Our Lady of Fatima.   



There was a time when I was absolutely entranced with these accounts.  Our Lady of Fatima, Our Lady of Lourdes, Our Lady of Guadalupe, Our Lady of Zeitoun, Our Lady of Perpetual Help, etc.   I came very close to becoming a Catholic, I studied their theology in depth and researched the history of Christianity.  I was IN LOVE with Jesus and Mary and the Two Hearts and I had a deep devotion to the Blessed Mother that I never could completely let go of.  It was an interesting time.  In the end however, I could not reconcile my sexuality with it and so I smile at the Holy Virgin from afar, nod to her in respect and blow her a kiss and I appreciate the rich architecture, art, icons, statuary and traditions of Apostolic Christianity without being able to agree with key teachings about sexuality and morality.  I feel a lot of anger currently towards the governing body of the Church and many of her adherents, but I will never completely lose respect for the world's largest and oldest Christian body.    But I suppose I will forever be an Agnostic Theist.  Though it may not come as a surprise to some of you that I was almost a Catholic, I think even  those that know me might be surprised at just how far into it I once was.   

As for the Miracle of the Sun itself, it always fascinated me and one of my favorite movies of all time was The Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima.

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Apprentice Harper

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Re: The Third Secret's sorrows
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2013, 04:24:06 AM »

@DarkZephyr Thanks for the movie reference. I will check it out soon. They blocked Miracle of Fatima part2
I really must apologize. I have wandered way off topic in this thread. I want to split this thread so I can clean it up. When I am feeling up to it I will ask for moderator help to sort things out.

I should try and move most of the Sumerian stuff to a thread of its own.

@bythelee
I do not really trust religions. I do believe in one God as Creator of the universe. I Believe in Nature as Mother of all Life here called Earth. The son of Man Jesus as Lord and the spoken Word of God. Also I believe that many worlds have Nature and children of God and Nature with the potential for perfection shared by all Life.

I believe that Humanity has been manipulated away from Nature by one or more races of intelligent life who use Humans as humans use bees and yeast and even each other to do work.

I believe that the original scrolls and writings that became the Bible are mostly true. I believe that the current bibles are more tools for politics and manipulation that have been interpreted in ways that obfuscate much of the original meaning. I hold that much of what is attributed to God in the bible is actually the result of interactions with a race or races that did manipulate but did not create Earth and Humanity.
bythelee
I am sorry I was not clear on these points and kept throwing my old writings and documentaries at you rather than writing exactly what I meant. When I am feeling smarter I will try and untangle the mess this thread has become.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 04:43:18 AM by Apprentice Harper »
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RAMBLE ON - LED ZEPPELIN LYRICS
...
It's time I was on my way.
Thanks to you I'm much obliged
For such a pleasant stay.
But now it's time for me to go
The autumn moon lights my way.
For now I smell the rain
And with it pain...

bythelee

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Re: The Third Secret's sorrows
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2013, 09:15:57 AM »

Dear Harper,
 
Thanks for clarifying things so well. I think I had mostly understood where you were coming from, even if my verbal diahorrea responses didn't show it. It has been a truly educating journey for me.
 
And, apart from Apostasy, which might have been the original (narrower) thread intention, it has been a fairly coherent thread for me. Frighteningly deep, perhaps, and some might say completely doolally, but I learned some time ago that someone's beliefs are never to be ridiculed. Challenged, perhaps, but there are always reasons why someone adopts the beliefs they cherish, so never ridiculed.
 
I seek to understand what makes someone believe what they do when it differs from mine, because that's an opportunity for learning and broadening my horizons. I am dismayed by the widespread tendency to reject and antagonise and fight when two differing-minded groups come together. So much of the conflict in the world today is because narrow-minded folk cannot see beyond their own choices, as if acknowledging there is any other way to see things is a vulnerability or weakness. And such bloody-mindedness is summed up as follows:
It takes real ignorance, to be that confident.
Because the only other way to be that confident, is to know about absolutely everything, and no-one has managed that, ever. Well, no human, at any rate.  :teehee:  Instead, the level of table banging, and volume of insistence that someone knows "the answer" is my gauge of how ignorant they really are. Sadly, the rest of the world instead sees someone who must really know what they're talking about, when the opposite is usually the case. There are a few exceptions, but you have to take the time to find out how much an "expert" really does know about the subject before deciding they know enough to be leading in the right direction. And that's hard with charismatic crowd pleasers, like Hitler. But now I'm wandering totally off topic.
 
It might be easier to just rename the thread, than attempt disentanglement. Perhaps "The manipulation of mankind". Because the apostasy is part of that, and all of the Sumerian stuff belongs there too. To me, the Sumerian content is valid proof of the maniuplation/influence that will ultimately bring about the prophesied apostasy. And we seem to have mostly been discussing manipulation, rather than the Third Secret.
 
As for my personal beliefs, I mostly agree with yours, with one big difference.
Creation, a balance in nature, manipulation of mankind, suspicion of "religion" as a human perversion of truth, using the bible as the foundation stone for faith, all good.
 
But, I am not convinced about "aliens". Well, I mean, I know there is "something" else, and a creator implies there is already a higher being. It's whether there are aliens intervening and taking advantage for their own ends that I'm not sure about. I'm still happy to call those perverting faith and religion the devil, and his demons. If they are really aliens, so be it, but I find their influence to be mostly at the spiritual, supernatural level, rather than flying about in ufo's.
 
I just don't see how humans are being "used", as opposed to "distracted". We are kept from seeking truth and deeper meaning by materialistic baubles and fashions and riots and so much small stuff to sweat, that we lose sight of what is important. This might just be the tactic used to stop us seeing how we are being used. (The Matrix looms again.) But for me, the distraction is to keep us from seeking God, turning our lives into such soap operas that we no longer stop to ask "Why am I here?"
 
The bible is fairly clear, that you don't have to be a devil worshipper to be against God. There are those that genuinely believe they are Christian, but have been successfully deceived by the devil pretending to be holy, and twisting scripture and faith just enough to get those people off the stairway to heaven, and no longer for God. This is the danger of religion, because religion comes from a human deciding what rituals are appropriate to honour God.
 
I learned from my schooldays that rules and rituals mostly exist to demonstrate the power of the leader. So the rituals of any religion are mostly to prove the power and dominance of it's chosen (human) leader, and we have only their word that such ritual is what God wants us to do. Far better to have faith than religion.
 
Trying to find and stay on that stairway, that narrow path, is the spiritual war being waged continuously around us, even when we remain oblivious to it. I know I am lost, by the way. Six years of total onslaught in my life has broken my faith. I hope God will be merciful, because I could not withstand the trials put before me.
Nevertheless, I remain convinced of the "more" (from my visions), but I really don't think it is alien in origin. 
 
Oh, and if this is the sort of stuff you come up with when you're not feeling smart, I tremble in awe at what you must be like on a good day. I mean that as a compliment.  :hug:
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Apprentice Harper

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Re: The Third Secret's sorrows
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2013, 12:55:22 PM »

Its been a long time since I have had to look up a word.

 doolally [duːˈlælɪ]
adj
Slang out of one's mind; crazy In full doolally tap
[originally military slang, from Deolali, a town near Bombay, the location of a military sanatorium + Hindustani tap fever]

thanks... I think. I suppose my Ideas tend to send one round the twist. LOL

One thing I would like to add, I believe the other intelegent races in the galaxy are just as valid as Humanity with the good and bad and all. If I am right they have one or more galactic governments and businesses Those who have interacted with Earth have probably done so in a similar way to the way Europe interacted with Africa.  All around us in Nature are examples of life formes that "exploit" one an other so I have no problem with the manipulators of humanity. They have their servival strategy and perhaps the laws in the galaxy are tolerant of "slavery" that is within the bounds of a certain code of decency.

If I am right all races have the right to achieve sovereignty. The Bible as well as the other writings about our interactions with those who come to Earth "from the sky" hold information in the form of legal and contractual language that could facilitate our eventual Human Sovereignty in Earth.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/w8v2vRlLL58" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/w8v2vRlLL58</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/MfENlxCXbro" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/MfENlxCXbro</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/zqahf9L7ZKo" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/zqahf9L7ZKo</a>
I will rename the thread.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/WtJ6BtD9g1Q" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/WtJ6BtD9g1Q</a>
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 10:04:35 PM by Apprentice Harper »
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RAMBLE ON - LED ZEPPELIN LYRICS
...
It's time I was on my way.
Thanks to you I'm much obliged
For such a pleasant stay.
But now it's time for me to go
The autumn moon lights my way.
For now I smell the rain
And with it pain...

Apprentice Harper

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Re: Christ & God VS the manipulators
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2013, 11:49:09 PM »

Thanks to Bythelee I have accepted the truth. In a series of PMs we discussed this thread and the ancient aliens theory. I was convinced to finally have a much more realistic look at the issue and found a great resource. Ancient Aliens Debunked | A refutation of the history channel show Ancient Aliens
I am now no longer addicted to AA LOL
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/j9w-i5oZqaQ" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/j9w-i5oZqaQ</a>
WARNING: too much of the stuff I wrote is based on the Ainchent Aliens theories. I now know that the whole thing was a scam. see Ancient Aliens Debunked | A refutation of the history channel show Ancient Aliens for a point of view I have now adopted.
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RAMBLE ON - LED ZEPPELIN LYRICS
...
It's time I was on my way.
Thanks to you I'm much obliged
For such a pleasant stay.
But now it's time for me to go
The autumn moon lights my way.
For now I smell the rain
And with it pain...

bythelee

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Re: Christ & God VS the manipulators
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2013, 06:38:29 PM »

In a word (sort of), Q.E.D.
 
At over three hours, that's a marathon debunking to watch. But totally worth it, to anyone interested in ancient aliens. I was impressed at how thoroughly it was done. I tend to analyse, and challenge, and question, and that showed in the PM exchange between me and Chuck, which was just my own resistance to things not adding up like they should. But, my goodness, I was not expecting it to have such a dramatic effect on Harper.
 
The debunking is specifically about ancient aliens. It doesn't tackle whether there are aliens here today, and how much they are (or are not) meddling with humanity. And it doesn't rule out aliens seeding life on earth. In fact, the bit about the Nephilim agrees that something weird absolutely went on in ancient times. It only debunks the artificial insemination theory. And even then, it only proves that the "reference" was not anything of the sort, when properly translated. Which doesn't even disprove the theory, it just takes away the claimed evidence.   
 
This essay might take you three hours to read, too......  :teehee:
 
 
 
 
 
Anyone still convinced about the ideas of Erich von Daniken and Zecharia Sitchen had better watch that debunking video. I would like to give these two the benefit of the doubt, that perhaps working in a non-native language causes opportunity for mis-understanding, but fundamentally, there is no excuse. There seem to be too many outright lies and deliberate deceptions to allow them any credibility. I had heard that von Daniken's ideas had been debunked, which put me off reading Chariots of the Gods some years ago, but I never imagined I would see such a convincing floor-wipe. I thought it was simply a difference of interpretation, but it seems he has many facts twisted and wrong too. Deliberate deception to sell more books, perhaps. Wouldn't be the first time.  :( 
 
I was also totally dismayed to find that I too, have been duped. I thought that Puma Punkhu was indeed a totally ancient (15,000BC) site in granite, that we could barely make today. Because, I believed that Giorgio Tsoukalos was giving me the FACTS. He seemed knowledgeable, and his claims were ones that no credible scientist would make, if they could be easily disproved. So I assumed they were truthful. But I was taken in by his confidence. After seeing him feature numerous times, saying things that were then proven to be false, and even things that I knew instantly to be outrageously inaccurate, I would now dismiss anything he says, and presume the opposite. For example, he said that his Zippo lighter would not work in the King's chamber of the Great Pyramid, after the lights went out, because "there was not enough oxygen". Not enough oxygen for his brain, certainly. Because, a typical small living room in an English Victorian 2-up, 2-down worker's cottage has enough oxygen to support a roaring log or coal fire, with all doors and windows closed. And yes, he would die of asphyxiation if there was indeed not enough oxygen in the pyramid for his lighter. So whatever reason his lighter didn't ignite, it wasn't for the completely daft reason he gave. And, really, he should know better. Numbskull. Me too, for not spotting his daftness earlier. But I wanted to believe Puma Punkhu was something really special.
 
But it isn't. Not 17,000 years old, which was based on a single dodgy report from 1929 that assumed that nearby stones had to have a celestial alignment at some time in the past, but created around 300AD, as confirmed by all other subsequent archaeology. Not granite, but a sandstone after all (I still question the lack of erosion and weathering....). And, the site also has some bronze alloy ties made for locking the stones together, and tools made from this alloy would be seriously strong. The locals certainly had the technology to make them, after all. It would still take a ridiculously long time and effort to make the purely decorative features, but who am I to ask why they bothered? I ask the same question of the Easter Island Moai, or Egyptian statues and obelisks...... I can't imagine myself bothering, but clearly they did think it was worthwhile.
 
There is so much more to write here, but I suspect the reader's eyes are already glazing over. So, here's a few skepticism tools to consider, to help you in your quest for Truth. For the answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything. Because the answer is not 42. At least, I believe it is not 42.......
 
 
 
- Beware of knowing the answer first, then finding the evidence. When you like a theory, it is easier to see facts that support it, and gloss over or ignore ones that do not. For example, once you want to prove that evolution is true, it is easy to find evidence that appears to support it. I can show you just as much evidence to prove evolution does NOT occur, if you want it..... Many creatures have not changed one tiny bit in 60 million years, in the same time it took humans to get from a small rodent to us.  Does. Not. Compute.
 
- How and Why are just as important as What. Claiming what something is, does not make it so. So, when an expert says "this is a xxxxxx", he should also be able to say Why it is one, and How it was made and used. Because, if there are no obvious answers to all of those questions, the first claim is probably wrong. 
 
- Partial truths. For example, "the Nazca lines are landing strips for UFO's". True, there are some long, straight lines that could be airstrips. One is 15 miles long, so that's a pretty bad aircraft by modern standards, needing such a long runway. And, more importantly, there are many curved lines, and loops and spirals. Like the Spider or monkey. What aircraft could land on those lines? Since only some of the lines could be airstrips, and absolutely not all of them, the claim is probably wrong. 
 
- What is not said can be as important as what is said. This is harder to see, because you don't know what facts are being left out because they don't support the theory. For example, the copper alloy tools found at Puma Punkhu was a fairly significant detail, but it was omitted because it provides an explanation for how the stone could have been shaped, which would undermine the idea that extra-terrestrials must have carved it. And, without the debunking video, I'd be none the wiser. It just proves that you really should look as far and wide as possible, at all sources of material, and especially those that disagree with what you want to see and believe.
 
- Be open-minded. So that when you do see something that contradicts your beliefs, you are open to changing your mind, and don't reject it. (Well done Chuck, for being open minded enough about Ancient Aliens to see the other side.)
 
- Look for inconsistency. Or, perhaps, don't clutch at straws. For example, the Tolima funeral goods included hundreds of small, stylised gold representations of insects and animals. About ten were believed to be aircraft, because they had wings at the bottom, so they couldn't be insects. OK, but what about fish? It seems unreasonable that the simple fishermen and farmers that made these artefacts would be so unimpressed by alien flying craft, as to only make a few artefacts to acknowledge them. Or rather, perhaps this inconsistency is because we are seeing what we want to see (UFOs) instead of trying to find the animals and creatures they were styled on. It makes much more sense that all of the artefacts are the same thing (representations of local creatures).
 
- Beware of Seeing what you want to see. Perhaps this should have been first. Is it a bird? Is it a plane? Is it Superman? No, it's a UFO. Or maybe it's a bird after all. Many artefacts are sufficiently vague, stylised, or eroded that it is not clear what it represents. Always try to get the clearest, most detailed views you can, and seek out as many alternative ideas as you can find. And then choose whether you agree it is a bird. Or a UFO. Or superman.....
When seeing what you want to see, bear in mind that it is a certainty that not everyone will see it the same way, so don't headbutt arguing over who is right. Look for the facts and details instead, and remain open minded if you can.
Anyone who focussed on the references for the Miracle of the Sun, might have spotted that some of the witnesses saw nothing. Most saw something. But it strikes me that if there really was something physical in the sky that looked like a sun and danced and weaved about, then everybody should have seen something, even if the descriptions varied. So, the little detail that some saw nothing at all tells me either it was side effects from staring at the real sun, as suggested by some debunkers, or it was a divine event that only the chosen would see, perhaps because it was a direct mind-stimulation. I sound like I'm off my rocker here, but these remain possible explanations, whereas a physical manifestation would seem to be proven false by those witnesses that saw nothing. Yet, who paid attention to the fact that some saw nothing, while eagerly lapping up the descriptions of those that saw something? 
 
- Distinguish FACT from OPINION. The artefact exists, and it's shape is a fact. What we think it repesents is opinion. A consensus of opinions leads us to think we have correctly interpreted what the artefact represents. But that consensus gives a false sense of security sometimes. Just because everyone says it's a UFO, doesn't mean it isn't really a plane. Or, an artistic representation of the sun. Some of the UFOs in art debunkings were really excellent, as it's only when you see the detail of the image, that it is suddenly very obvious that the interpretation was wrong.
 
- Details matter. When something looks like something at first glance, but little details upon closer inspection say it is something else, you really shouldn't ignore the new information. Every last detail matters. That Tolima artefact must be a jet plane. But it's got eyes. And teeth. So maybe it isn't a plane after all....
 
- References. Many of the debunked claims use sources that are almost impossible to reference, such as ancient texts in languages that very few can translate. And even then, lack of specifics about page, chapter and paragraph are clues that the chances of your checking up that reference are being deliberately reduced to nil.
All credit to the debunkers for finding most of these impossible-to-find sources. And then showing that they really mean something completely different.
These days, scholars numbers are increasing, and the internet is making so much information to so many, that finding appropriate translations and references is quick and easy. So, fortunately, the psuedo-science and fictitious translations of the last century are fast becoming extinct.
 
- Selective facts. Along with the vague details, and things not being said, when facts get selected because they support a theory when those that do not are ignored and left out, it is probable that the theory is wrong. I say probable, because it might be that the contradictory facts are not contradictory, but merely that we don't understand them properly. But, until all of the facts point the same way, all supporting the same idea, then any theory should be treated with caution. Evolution is the one for me. Because those creatures that haven't evolved at all in 60 million years, or Stromatolites not changing in 3.5 billion years, or tardigrades that have abilities to withstand hot and cold and radiation and outer space, all tells me that evolution ain't working as a theory anymore. (Incidentally, natural selection to massage the basic statistics of a species over time is quite OK, and in no way debunked by this. But, natural selection does not prove evolution.)   
 
- Beware of obfuscation, and generalisation. So many of the false claims debunked began with "Mainstream archaeologists believe....." Oh yeah? Like, Who, exactly? Name one. It is extremely easy to be suckered in with such formal sounding generalisations, because, it should be easy to prove this is false, if it is not so, so would they dare to make the claim knowing it to be false? Yes, actually. I was shocked too, but this isn't science, it is entertainment (well, the History Channel actually).
They rely on the fact that no-one will take it upon themselves to actually CHECK whether the majority of mainstream archaeologists really do believe the claim made. Furthermore, define "mainstream". Perhaps we can leave out some people that don't agree with the general claim being made. Or include some of the stranger ideas by widening the "mainstream". And so on. What is so easily said, and convincingly said by a confident narrator, is not just factually meaningless but downright deceptive in most of the debunkings. And you have to tune in to what sounds good but is ultimately unprovable, listening with a very critical ear, to spot it.
Politicans are masters of this trick by definition.  :biggrin:
 
- Excuses. There shouldn't be any. If an idea is being challenged, it is not acceptable to say "maybe a word or two got mistranslated". Because, if they couldn't be bothered to get that right, then what else did they get wrong? Besides, such big cracks in the foundations of any theory makes it unlikely the theory will stand up in an earthquake.
 
- Recognise when your imagination is being used to fill in information. For example, carvings of Arcadian Winged Genies were shown, supposedly as examples of Anunnaki envisioned by the Sumerians. Nope, wrong culture, wrong period, wrong everything. And hard to debunk, unless you know what you are being shown. But to be told something vague, while being shown an image intended to fill in the rest, is a perfect way to be misled. Those genies, incidentally, also wore wristwatches. And yes, it looked like a wristwatch at first glance. Except, it looked like an 8-petalled flower to me, worn like a corsage. Then more of the image was revealed. There was one on each wrist. So, two watches? And one on the forehead. WTF? Oh, and there's one wearing a headband with at least four of the florettes on it. No, not a wristwatch. Turns out the floret was a typical symbol for Ishtar, the Goddess of fertility. But it was easy to believe for a moment that yes, this was indeed a wristwatch. And easy enough to keep on believing it, if you wanted to.
 
- Beware of anthropomorphisation. And of putting yourself in their shoes. Just because we wouldn't do things like that today, doesn't mean it should always have been so. Like, the lack of trees on Easter Island today does not mean it was always so, and it has now been proven that there used to be a lot of trees there. Before the locals cut them all down to move their Moai. And, just because the Egyptian desert is dry today, doesn't mean that the climate once had enough rain to erode the back of the Sphinx. I often find myself using reasons why I would or would not do something, and assume that ancients or aliens would have the same reasons. And there is no way I can know that, and should not make the assumption. But, I do it because I have no other reference. It's just important to remember that this is assumption, and not certainty. And just because we know how humans today would do something, doesn't mean we should assume the same rules applied in the past.
 
 
 
 
Despite all that, in the lack of complete knowledge and understanding, we do still very much grope our way blindly towards what we feel comfortable with, and accept as truth. Such belief is universal - everyone believes something. And, it is a fact that everyone believes something. The belief doesn't always have to be based on fact and evidence - we can call this faith. Or prejudice! And we can only gently offer facts and evidence that might persuade someone to change their beliefs. Bludgeoning them into accepting our belief over their own won't work. And tolerating others that believe different things is hard, especially when the evidence that we know of tells us we are right and they are wrong. Maybe they know something we don't. Or vice versa.   
 
For the record, for me the jury is out about whether aliens exist. They might, but I strongly doubt we have had any contact with them.
In the first place, how would they find us? Our radio transmissions have reached perhaps 100 light years from earth. We are beginning to find candidate other earths in other solar systems, but only in those systems where the planetary orbits take the planets across the face of their sun as seen from earth. Which is perhaps 1% of the available alignments. So, that means 99% of space travelling aliens won't even make a beeline for earth. Unless they are generally surveying all of the star systems they can, which is expensive. Would our first interstellar voyage go to the nearest star system, or to the nearest earth-candidate that we know of? And I'm doing the assumption that aliens would do the same as me with that leading question.....
Whatever the answer, they are so far ahead of us to actually travel here, that they have no need to muck about with abductions or manipulations. They could cleanse the planet to prepare a new colony for themselves if they wanted. Or, avoid first contact until we are sufficiently advanced, a la Star Trek and Prime Directive. Or perhaps they did seed the human population a long time ago, and we are their offspring with suitable adaptation to local life. And suddenly that's not far from the creation story, where God is an alien.     
 
There remain some intriguing questions. In addition to the weirdness of the Nephilim, the description of Noah's ark in the bible is of a perfect design for a wooden ship, suited to purpose. This was intended to show how the Sumerian account (which looked like a Borg Cube) was not really accurate enough to be a truthful account of the flood myth. And because the creation, Nephilim, and Noah's flood myths are widespread in every culture around the world, it is accepted there must be some truth in what happened, but who has the most accurate version? And the Jewish version won that status.
What was missed, is how did Noah get the inspiration to build the optimum ship, when no craft before or since even came close? Where did he get that knowledge? Dare I say "divine inspiration"? And was that "divinity" really God, or an alien? It is little details like these that are the true mysteries that defy knowledge and understanding, and open the door to... something else. Your choice what that could be.
 
Incidentally, the evidence is that Planet X (Nibiru) does indeed exist. I am somewhat surprised that we haven't managed to see it yet. Not officially, anyway. But science does support the presence of an outlier planet on a hugely elliptical orbit that takes 3600 earth years to complete. And spends most of it's time well beyond the solar system. So even if the Anunnaki don't exist, their planet probably does. And yes, this would be the same Planet X that features in the end times of Revelations, causing massive destruction on earth from tidal gravity forces as it makes a close pass.
 
There are grains of truth all over the place, and it's hard to spot them. Harder still to see how they all fit into the big picture. I've been looking for 35 years, and I don't think I'm anywhere close yet. Most folk don't even think about this at all, so well done you for reading this far. Now go and look at that debunking video.
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Apprentice Harper

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Re: Christ & God VS the manipulators
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2013, 03:20:45 PM »

 :applaud: :smile1:
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RAMBLE ON - LED ZEPPELIN LYRICS
...
It's time I was on my way.
Thanks to you I'm much obliged
For such a pleasant stay.
But now it's time for me to go
The autumn moon lights my way.
For now I smell the rain
And with it pain...

Apprentice Harper

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Re: Christ & God VS the manipulators
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2013, 10:56:55 PM »

Rauni-Leena Luukanen-Kilde has experienced gang stalking.  I find her story interesting  Some have expressed that they think most gang stalking is confined to the US and I have always read just the opposite, that TIs are found all around the world.
Quote
Luukanen-Kilde has claimed to have been "rescued" from danger by extraterrestrials, and to have esoteric skills and knowledge as a result of her relationship with them. She maintains that there is a secret exchange program between humans and aliens that is being deliberately suppressed by "powerful Western governments", particularly the United States.[1]
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/JpPXf0oLKRA" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/JpPXf0oLKRA</a>

Quote
Mind Control Specialist and author Rauni Kilde has been at the fore front, in the medical & UFO fields, to break new ground in the Out Of Body, Human No Death experience.

I want to thank Rauni Kilde so much for her bravery and I am sorry for the great hardships she has been subjected to.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/2sEiwDOt5EQ" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/2sEiwDOt5EQ</a>
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RAMBLE ON - LED ZEPPELIN LYRICS
...
It's time I was on my way.
Thanks to you I'm much obliged
For such a pleasant stay.
But now it's time for me to go
The autumn moon lights my way.
For now I smell the rain
And with it pain...

Apprentice Harper

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Re: Christ & God VS the manipulators
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2013, 01:25:09 AM »

I have been immersing myself into very dark subjects for the past two weeks and now I feel as though all my suspicions about the choreography of 911 and the financial crisis are true. We are being led over the edge of a cliff for "our own good,"??? by planners and manipulators who have managed to turn the words of citizens who tell the truth into conspiracy theories to be ignored or demonized as unpatriotic. I believe that the United States as I know it will be sacrificed and devided amongst those who have been planning a time of financial upheaval designed to allow them to greatly tighten their control on all nations. Watch the dancing bear <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/oSQJP40PcGI" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/oSQJP40PcGI</a> what is our world media telling us to look at? Is there a hand in your pocket? Is it your hand? maybe this video is just another conspiracy theory... Maybe Humanity is OK... <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/mJmHY_iWsmA" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/mJmHY_iWsmA</a> Is there some one with there hand on your back? Have you checked lately? Look in the other directions, check your pocket, and watch your back. Get right with family and friends. Do the things you have been putting off till things get better. Be aware of the other things you know are truly important. Falling seems like flying for a while. If you look down you can, perhaps, wake up in time to open your wings or did you pack your parachute?

« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 07:17:55 PM by Apprentice Harper »
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RAMBLE ON - LED ZEPPELIN LYRICS
...
It's time I was on my way.
Thanks to you I'm much obliged
For such a pleasant stay.
But now it's time for me to go
The autumn moon lights my way.
For now I smell the rain
And with it pain...

Amra

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Re: Christ & God VS the manipulators
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2013, 02:58:53 AM »

The problem with conspiracy theories is that they always assume there's a huge group of conspiracists who all know each other, hold all the power of the world in their hands, be it openly or secretly, have a consistent and worldwide plan, and are able to execute it worldwide without fail or interference over many decades. Since when have you known humanity or indiviual people to be as organized like that? In reality it's just a mish-mash of short-term interests working with or against each other, people in power come and go and may or may not influence things that happen, and each has their own agenda, mostly uncoordinated even with allies. So I find believers in conspiracy theorists to be hugely optimistic about human nature. If we could be that organized, we could also make it work for the good, whatever we believe that to be (depending on norms and values, cultural background, personal preferences, etc.). But it's just chaos and we just try to make some sense out of it, even if it isn't there. Chaos is scary, death is scary, and the human brain is not equipped to handle it because we need a clear picture and hope to be able to survive. So we deny chaos and death even exist and survive, but we also make up the strangest stories sometimes because that's what we do: we make stories about everything around us. They're not about "the truth", they're just about trying to get a handle on things so we can survive and prosper, without being stunned by fear all the time.
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bythelee

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Re: Christ & God VS the manipulators
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2013, 04:12:51 PM »

True - humans look for patterns where none exist. But, also true is that sometimes patterns are so complex we cannot spot them.
 
True - there are some smallish groups that wield extraordinary power, and little is known about who they are and what they do. While I'm mostly thinking of Government "control" agencies like FBI or NSA or MI6 or Stasi or KGB, there are others. Mugabe's intimidation squads have kept him in power for decades. We are still only guessing at the level of Chinese Hack Attacks, but that seems to be a fairly organised and co-ordinated group. And, there's always Greenpeace. 
So, co-ordinating of individuals for long periods is not as impossible as it seems. I personally baulk at the idea of a world conspiracy, though. Except for economic monopolies, perhaps.
 
The British comedy series "Yes, Minister" looked at how the real power is wielded by faceless permanent employee bureaucrats, while the elected figureheads become the signature fall-guys. The US president is in the same boat, as is any democratically elected leader. So, I see plenty of opportunity for long term projects by governments.
 
Where there is smoke, there is usually a fire. There are Grains of Truth hidden in every story, no matter how bizarre and laughable. The level of rumour and myth about conspiracy theories tells me conspiracies probably do exist.
 
The debatable part is how large the scale, how long term, and what sort of targets and intentions are behind them. It seems a little far-fetched to think the US Government put the Taliban up to the 9/11 attacks. And yet, Maggie Thatcher would have been crushed at re-election in the early 1980's without the "fortunate" patriotism-stirring Falklands War.
The US Government has got far more mileage out of 9/11 than it could ever have dreamed of: invading Iraq, military spending boosts, draconian powers to counter "terrorism", and a media loosening of using "terrorism" to describe any event that disrupts peace and quiet. The aim of any government is to entrench itself in power. And the visciousness with which any whistleblowing is stamped on tells me there is something to hide.   
 
Lastly, we are so susceptible to being fed information that we don't even register, which makes everyone so easy to manipulate, that even the highly paranoid and unemotive analysers are never going to get a clear view. The truth can never be seen, making any conspiracy theory an impossible question to unravel.
 
The "dancing bear" is a fair example, although I did manage to achieve both counting the passes and seeing the bear. But only because I knew to look for the bear at the start, and I've seen the clip once before. Here's a far subtler example of "subliminal influence":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQXe1CokWqQ
Derren Brown is a fairly "edgy" mind games entertainer. Part magician, part trickster, part psychologist, part mind-reader. He's just very skilled at "manipulation". Those two advertising gurus were not even aware of the conspiracy to influence them, and yet they fell for it completely.
 
So, for me the question is not whether there are conspiracies. There absolutely are. Instead, my question is How big (street, town, country or world), How Long (a week, a month, a year, a decade, or more), Who does it involve and What is it trying to achieve.
 
Insisting there are no conspiracies, and that humans are far too fickle and self interested to act in harmony for long enough, is as deluded as believing the Illuminati have controlled the world for centuries. The truth is somewhere in between.
 
As for the sacrificing of the US, I think the prime opporunity for that has passed already. If there is a big collapse coming, it will take down all of capitalist democracy. I wouldn't put it past China and Russia to be working towards that goal. And I know how long term the Chinese plan.....
 
Trouble is, I suspect Amra is right in suggesting that our story telling tends to take us much further away from the truth than we otherwise would be.   
 
 
 
 
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Apprentice Harper

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Re: Christ & God VS the manipulators
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2013, 06:16:31 PM »

the owners of the United States can do 911 quite easily with no help form any puny terrorists. They do not ask permission they demand obedience. Tiptoe around and be a good dog. Crap I am tired of choking back the vomit every time I hear how thankful I should be or love it or leave it or that those perfect demolitions where not taken down according to an agenda to manipulate Humanity.

I am tired of pretending to accept crap like that when I know better. The federal reserve bankers knew exactly what would happen when all  the stupid free market crap and lousy predatory loans hit the fan... they were depending on it. I can feel it and I am not going to say otherwise,
I hate the phrases "humans look for patterns where none exist" "there is no scientific proof" and the ilk. I am sorry for Humans so dependent on comfort and blind spots that they will spend their last moments arguing with any one who says "LOOK OUT FOR THAT BIG NASTY MONSTER!!!"

I am in a foul mood. stinking heat and not apologizing  because I always do that

crap... always backing down because my mind is cooking in this shed and I can not think worth a shit some times... my brains in an oven so look out!
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 07:19:59 PM by Apprentice Harper »
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...
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For now I smell the rain
And with it pain...

SinisterDeath

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Re: Christ & God VS the manipulators
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2013, 06:29:27 PM »

The other day, I was looking through this thread, when I saw the debunked video.

I had a blast watching it.
A few years ago, I always approached Ancient Aliens with an open mind, but at the same time, highly skeptical of what they were saying.
I to was fooled by their approach of Puma Punku. Hell they even went so far as to edit the Wikipedia page to give their arguments weight for those researching it on their own!

But, The major thing I took from ancient Aliens, wasn't a belief in 'aliens' taught people how to do everything, or down right did it.
I took a far more human approach to it.
I felt Ancient Aliens was highly insulting to Humanity. They were making us, Humans look like incompetent doles, by making EVERYTHING we had ever accomplished, SOMEONE ELSES DOING!

Remember how pissed people were when Obama said "You didn't build that!" (even though that was out of context )
I took what Ancient Aliens that way, only times 10.
They were saying.
YOU DIDN'T Build that! Aliens Did!
NO!
Early Humans were fucking smart! They weren't idiots, or incompetent. Arguably the smartest man in Existence, was Isaac Newton! He invented Calculus, JUST to prove his theories right!
I took Puma Punku, as a way of saying "okay, if this was true. Than early Humans were far smarter, and more advanced than we originally thought! Awesome!" not "OMG ALIENS!"


That said.
AS for Aliens?
I'm sure they exist.
Are they on earth? Have they visited us? I dunno.
But if they have? Consider this.

If they traveled here, from a distance exceeding 100 light years, at sublight speeds. That trip would take Over a century. Maybe even half a millienia.
Do you want to fuck, with that kind of intersteller species, that's been travelling to your planet, for nearly 500 years? If they are 'here', than if they are 'planning' anything, they've had plenty of patience, and power to do whatever the hell it is they want.

If they travelled here, at speeds Faster Than the Speed of Light/worm hole technology.
If they have plans for earth, and they are hostile?
Just bend over, Kiss your ass good bye, Because there is no fighting that. Just hadn them the keys to your car, and say "may I dig my own grave first?" because fighting that kind of power, would be a pointless waste of energy. If they'd take slaves/pets, or whatever from humanity to keep humanity alive? Do it. Cause otherwise, your just fertilzer to that species.

Oh, I forgot to mention!
As for Aliens seeding life on earth?

Well, its actually possible, that space debris from a collision on Mars, seeded life on Earth.
The one major question I have is.
A) what was this giant collision with mars, that sent rocks, From the surface of Mars, to collide with earth?
And
B) does this have anything to do, with the formation of our Moon? And/or could our moon, also have been, Mars's, moon at one point in time, and became the rogue planet that eventually collided with earth, to form the moon we have today?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2013, 06:32:25 PM by SinisterDeath »
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Apprentice Harper

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Re: Christ & God VS the manipulators
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2013, 06:24:23 AM »

:bigfatbouncyboobies: :ooga:
 :shocked:<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/szwvjyiGBSk" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/szwvjyiGBSk</a> :haha:
 :smile1: :applaud: :hypnotoad:
« Last Edit: August 27, 2013, 06:27:51 AM by Apprentice Harper »
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RAMBLE ON - LED ZEPPELIN LYRICS
...
It's time I was on my way.
Thanks to you I'm much obliged
For such a pleasant stay.
But now it's time for me to go
The autumn moon lights my way.
For now I smell the rain
And with it pain...

bythelee

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Re: Christ & God VS the manipulators
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2013, 08:23:52 AM »

Early Humans were fucking smart! They weren't idiots, or incompetent. Arguably the smartest man in Existence, was Isaac Newton! He invented Calculus, JUST to prove his theories right!
I took Puma Punku, as a way of saying "okay, if this was true. Than early Humans were far smarter, and more advanced than we originally thought! Awesome!" not "OMG ALIENS!"
Yes.....
Incidentally, it turns out that Leonardo Da Vinci had discovered integration (calculating awkward volumes by summing areas of thin slices), and all the basics necessary for calculus, long before Newton. But his ideas were too far ahead of their time, and lost during the Dark Ages.
(Link came from Apprentice Harper originally - thank him for it)
I found his calculation of Pi via the bounding method to be superbly clever. And we still use his 22/7 approximation today.....
How did one man have such genius over 1500 years before anyone else? And have the opportunity to use it at a time when education was extremely rare?

If anything, I find early humans to be too smart. They did so much stuff that we still struggle with today, even though we have the tools and machinery to make the job a lot easier. Never mind the shifting of stones of 100's of tons, it's the astronomy and math that seems improbable. While agriculture meant we had some free time, and were not constantly scavenging just to survive, I am still dubious that it gave people so much free time to achieve these great works.

Then again, I look at the advances of the 19th and early 20th century (atomic physics, relativity, etc) and don't understand how, during times of much smaller populations, such incredible intellect flourished. It seems like there is nothing "new" these days - just rehashes and miniaturisations and cobbling together of existing stuff to create more complex ideas (perhaps string theory is an exception).

Perhaps the "dumbing down" theory behind "Idiocracy" is taking effect already.....
(please watch these two sequentially - I couldn't find them in one complete clip.....)

Anyway, the point I'm winding up to, is that I'm still inclined to think our greatest advances, ancient or modern, were done with the help of some sort of supernatural inspiration. Divine or alien, dunno. But it seems too clever to be human alone.

Quote
AS for Aliens?
If they are 'here', than if they are 'planning' anything, they've had plenty of patience, and power to do whatever the hell it is they want.
... your just fertilzer to that species.
you're = you are just fertilizer...
Pretty much sums up what I said before. If they have the capability to get here, they sure don't need to muck about being diplomatic, or abducting and experimenting. They can assimilate or wipe us out at will.

And if they have a Prime Directive that makes them wait until we're ready to join the space-faring species, there is a small chance that some maverick yobos will drop by to have some fun at our expense.....

Quote
Well, its actually possible, that space debris from a collision on Mars, seeded life on Earth.
The one major question I have is.
A) what was this giant collision with mars, that sent rocks, From the surface of Mars, to collide with earth?
And
B) does this have anything to do, with the formation of our Moon? And/or could our moon, also have been, Mars's, moon at one point in time, and became the rogue planet that eventually collided with earth, to form the moon we have today?
I've seen a variety of answers....
The one that came up in this thread, was that a rogue planet X entered the solar system from deep space. It passed close to earth, which at that time was orbiting where the asteroid belt is today. One of Planet X's moons hit the earth, smashing it into the bits that make up the asteroid belt, and moving the smaller remnant into a closer orbit (the earth today). Our moon was captured from Nibiru (Planet X).

Similar tales are that two planets collided, with the impact smashing away enough of the earth's crust to form the moon. And so on.

We believe there are amino acids present on many asteroids - I thought those were the asteroid belt, and not rocks from mars. Any asteroid impact big enough, can eject debris clear fo the planet, and this is how small meteorites hitting earth could have come from mars. But it sounds like you've got the tale of planetary collision that formed the earth and moon crossed up with the seeding of life from a tiny sample of space rock. Because, after the planetary collision, the earth would have been a molten ball of lava - not a suitable habitat for life to get going!

All of the tales seem to have in common that the earth and moon did not form as a pair from the primordial material of the solar system, but that a massive impact of some kind resulted in the formation / capture of the moon at some later date - I think about 1 billion years after the solar system first formed, 4.5 billion years ago.
I've not seen anywhere that Mars was involved in any of that. The Nibiru story is that the earth was orbiting where the asteroid belt is today. The planet collision story was with a second planet that shared the same orbit as the earth. (Apparently this is possible at "Gauss points" - but they should be stabley separated, so it isn't clear why they should approach and hit each other)

I'm no expert on all of the ideas, and you could spend years researching them all.

What I find significant, is that all theories agree the moon "arrived later", and since life on earth would not have got beyond unicellular organisms without the ocean tides from our moon, the chances of intelligent life on other planets are much slimmer than expected. So many unique coincidences have contributed to setting up this planet to have life, that I remain uncertain as to whether it has happened anywhere else in the universe. I mean, at least, "life as we know it, Jim.:shoulder:

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Apprentice Harper

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Re: Christ & God VS the manipulators
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2013, 01:49:45 AM »

The problem with conspiracy theories is that they always assume there's a huge group of conspiracists who all know each other, hold all the power of the world in their hands, be it openly or secretly, have a consistent and worldwide plan, and are able to execute it worldwide without fail or interference over many decades. Since when have you known humanity or indiviual people to be as organized like that? In reality it's just a mish-mash of short-term interests working with or against each other, people in power come and go and may or may not influence things that happen, and each has their own agenda, mostly uncoordinated even with allies. So I find believers in conspiracy theorists to be hugely optimistic about human nature. If we could be that organized, we could also make it work for the good, whatever we believe that to be (depending on norms and values, cultural background, personal preferences, etc.). But it's just chaos and we just try to make some sense out of it, even if it isn't there. Chaos is scary, death is scary, and the human brain is not equipped to handle it because we need a clear picture and hope to be able to survive. So we deny chaos and death even exist and survive, but we also make up the strangest stories sometimes because that's what we do: we make stories about everything around us. They're not about "the truth", they're just about trying to get a handle on things so we can survive and prosper, without being stunned by fear all the time.
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RAMBLE ON - LED ZEPPELIN LYRICS
...
It's time I was on my way.
Thanks to you I'm much obliged
For such a pleasant stay.
But now it's time for me to go
The autumn moon lights my way.
For now I smell the rain
And with it pain...
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